Tucker Frames

[Tucker Fan 48]

I been trying to get something clear here for a long time. Al Reinart always had that test car along with his friend Gilliland who collected parts together for a long time. There was never any Kughn Collection and that is only what they called their collection which they used to finish many cars that were sold by them. They also had 1027 along with the Test Chassis which they used both to start building a last Tucker and now seeing one frame is missing that may be under the other car that was for sale by him before but I do not know. Well in 2002 the test car did not sell and I have the list of all the cars that sold that day. I have the price each car went for and only this car did not sell. It was the only car not sold that day. Hope this help a little to solve things here. Also that coul was the correct coul for the test chassis which is missing and as you can see the coul was bolted together so it may have been easy to remove with no damage to the frame or coul.

Well then I'll clarify this for what it's worth - I was at Reinert's in May 2002. There was no extra frame there at that time. Just 1043, the convertible (in a similar state of completion as when Justin bought it) and an old Mopar. So someone other than Reinert had the "Kughn Collection" between May and November 2002 with whichever frame that has.

Tucker and TuckerCar....I'm really confused now. The Kughn Collection referred to a collection of cars owned by Richard Kughn, the former CEO of Lional Trains. Richard Kughn hired RM Auctions to sell off most of his collection. RM held an auction for part of the Kughn Collection at Novi Expo center in Michigan, on November 15th-17th, 2002. A group of parts known as Lot #684 and listed as 1948 Tucker 48 (Project Car) was sold on Sunday November 17th, 2002 for $31,350 (included buyer premium). The lot included an original Tucker chassis plus a collection of Tucker parts that included a cowl, several body panels, a door, hood, decklid and several original and experimental engines. See links below:

http://www.rmauctions.com/AuctionResult ... =&Sold=All

http://www.rmauctions.com/PressRelease.cfm?PressID=432

This lot was sold to Historic Auto Attractions of Roscoe IL. which still owns it today. According to various websites, parts from #1018, doors from #1027, and frame #1052 are part of this lot.


Tucker... I'm confused that you said "There was never any Kughn Collection" and "in 2002 the test car did not sell and I have the list of all the cars that sold that day. I have the price each car went for and only this car did not sell. It was the only car not sold that day." Can you clarify what you mean as Lot #684 from the Kughn Collection clearly sold on Sunday November 17th, 2002?

TuckerCar... I'm also confused about your statement "someone other than Reinert had the "Kughn Collection" between May and November 2002 with whichever frame that has." The Kughn Collection auction had been announced as early as April of 2002 and the group of parts known as Lot #684 was there the entire time and had been owned by Kughn for several years before the sale.


The allegation that the Kughn Collection parts and the "#1057 Convertible" owned by Justin Cole came from the website Hudson and Rods and not from anyone here. See link below:

http://hudsonandrods.blogspot.com/2009/ ... e-for.html

There seems to be some connection between Richard Kughn and Al Reinert. It would make sense as Kughn was very rich and was a huge collector of autos. Any serious collector would want a Tucker in his collection and Reinhart owned (or acquired) a few over the years so it would certainly be possible that the two of them met or spoke to each other. Also, the file that holds all the documentation for the Roscoe parts has Reinerts name scribbled on it.

There is a story that Kughn bought a large group of parts and was having them shipped to Detroit when the truck rolled off the highway scattering the parts all over. Al Reinert volunteered to pick up the parts and reload the truck in exchange for some of the parts. I'm not sure if the parts came from Gilliland or Ezras and if the story is true. I've just read it a few times so I'm not sure where Kughn got the parts from.

If Richard Kughn and Al Reinert were connected in some way then it would be very possible that many of the Reinert parts ended up in Roscoe as part of that group. It's interesting that there is no frame in the pictures taken in Roscoe by Justin Cole. There is pictures of a #52 stamping on the parts but I can't tell where that is on the car. Is it possible there is a BIG reason that Cole did not take pictures of the frame? Seems like he went out of his way to show us that everything else was not part of his car. Why did he leave out the frame?

[TuckerCar]

I was not suggesting that there wasn't a Kughn collection as TUCKER states. I was just saying IF Reinert was involved with those parts (lot 684), they weren't at his house when I was there in 2002.

[Tucker Fan 48]

This really has me thinking now. The entire basis for the "convertible" story being real is the "special frame". Every story that they release about the car talks about the "special frame" that proves it is real. The "special frame" that was reinforced at Lencki's. The "special frame" that was at Jerry Renner's Harley shop to be restored. The "special frame" that Al Prueitt saw in the mid-60s. The "special frame" that is pictured all over their website.

WHY then if Justin Cole went to Roscoe IL., to take pictures of the parts there, did he not take a picture of Frame #52 which was sold with parts lot #684 of the Kughn Collection by RM Auctions on November 17th, 2002 to Historic Auto Attractions? Certainly he would want pictures of as many Tucker frames as he could get to show that he has the one and only "special frame".

Could it be that frame #52 is also reinforced?

Where is the frame that was with parts lot #684?

Could it be that frame #52 is under the convertible?

Why did he not take a picture of frame #52?

What is Justin Cole trying to hide from the world?

[Tucker Fan 48]

TuckerCar..... What was under the "convertible" when you were there in 2002? Was it the "special frame" we see in the pictures now?

[Tucker Fan 48]

I know at some point last year we determined that the wheelbases changed from the early cars to the later ones. I'm sure
someone will remember at what car the change happened. Does anyone know what wheelbase is under the "convertible"?
If it's any early wheelbase it would sure make it difficult to say their frame is from #1057.

[TuckerCar]

TuckerCar..... What was under the "convertible" when you were there in 2002? Was it the "special frame" we see in the pictures now?

At the time I recall Al saying it was a thicker gauge steel, not reinforced with additional sheet metal. But that is just a recollection. When I saw the car it was in the same state as when Justin bought it, except it had no body panels at all and Al was fabricating the firewall at the time. I remember because he had Vise-grips on it to weld it in place and it was nose-first into the garage to the right. 1043 was on the left and the Mopar in the middle. I also remember looking at the door skins and seeing the weld lines. He also said the convertible top frame was from a Buick.

But it was all rather odd and rushed. He was not really interested in showing it, and we were just there to load 1043 on a trailer.

So unfortunately, I really don't have anything useful to add on the frame saga.

[TUCKER]

The convertible have the early wheelbase as I remember and also once again the 52 car was not sold at 2002. Al always had other people to advertise his car and it was never him. Also when he had it for sale along with the other car he had it selling by another person. The was never a Tucker in a Kughn collection but that was onlt the name the advertisment went thrue on 2002. Al was stilll the owner since 1950 and had it with his friend Gilliland at some time he traded it for parts to complete another car and then bought it back combining their collections of parts to build one final and last car that would be 1052 but that never happened due to parts missing to complete. Al also had a roof off another car that was said to not fit correctly by a friend of mine who saw it in person so he just advertised it as to make a convertible and was never seen again since then. Last time seen it was at Gilliland along with 1027 which was parted and some of the parts went to 1051 and 1050. The test chassis #2 known as 52 and 1027 were at Gilliland together and then Al took all the parts. some of this parts were also used to complete the blue car Al had for sale at the same time so that may be where the other frame went??? Maybe the 1027 frame went there and the test chassis to the convertible???

[MD]

Contrary to popular belief, the Illinois manufacturer plates attached to most Tuckers seem to have little if any bearing on the actual serial numbers of the cars. For example, in the "Tucker: The Man and the Car" promotional film we see a car driving into a service station with a plate that appears to say either 1-16 or 1-18. But we also see that the gas lid is on the left front fender, so we have to conclude that the car is serial number 1025+ (I believe the car actually is #1025, dark green exterior/interior, front gas lid, probably built prior to #1037)...

I'm getting a little of topic here, but I will respectfully disagree that #1025 is the car in the promo film. #1025 was the last car to have the gas filler door in the rear fender. #1026 was the changeover to front mounted gas tank. I believe the green car in the promo film is most likely #1038.

Martyn

[Tuckeroo]

Contrary to popular belief, the Illinois manufacturer plates attached to most Tuckers seem to have little if any bearing on the actual serial numbers of the cars. For example, in the "Tucker: The Man and the Car" promotional film we see a car driving into a service station with a plate that appears to say either 1-16 or 1-18. But we also see that the gas lid is on the left front fender, so we have to conclude that the car is serial number 1025+ (I believe the car actually is #1025, dark green exterior/interior, front gas lid, probably built prior to #1037)...

I'm getting a little of topic here, but I will respectfully disagree that #1025 is the car in the promo film. #1025 was the last car to have the gas filler door in the rear fender. #1026 was the changeover to front mounted gas tank. Without consulting my notes, I think #1025 was silver gray originally. I believe the green car in the promo film is most likely #1038.

Martyn

I should stop trying to be so clever. Looks like #1025 did have gas tank in the rear (and a 128" wheelbase, the last we see of that), but consulting my notes it should still be green on green (300/900). Therefore #1038 is a good candidate for that car and means the film was made under considerable pressure (as we presume the "first 37" to be built prior to the beginning of the end.) If so, this also means it did have an engine and transmission and was completed, fully functional at the factory (Reinert and Cole, I'm looking at you.)

But again, my original point about manufacturers plates still holds true, they don't correlate well with the serial numbers.

[plancor 792]

The longer this goes the more confusing it becomes to some of you. First off Tucker's Serial Number 1001 through Serial Number 1008 had a 128 inch wheelbase. Starting with Serial Number 1009 the wheelbase was increased to 130 inches. So Tucker's Serial Number 1009 through Serial Number 1050 have 130 inch wheelbase. I have been told that the Tucker Carlos completed the build of also has 130 inch wheelbase however I have not checked this vehicle so cannot say for sure. I will have to go back to the message to answer the other thing briought there.
Richard Jones

[plancor 792]

Tucker Serial Number 1025 was Dark Green when it left the plant. Paint Number 300. Starting with Serial Number 1026 the fuel tank was moved forward and the filler cap was placed in the drivers side front fender. Also at Serial Number 1026 they put larger torsilastic suspension units in the rear and changed to a torsilastic suspension in the front end of the car. Other changes included replacing the mechanical controls that move the center head light with a cable, using normal wheels in place of the dished out ones and using solid hub caps. Many other changes were also made at Serial number 1026.
Richard Jones

[Tucker Fan 48]

Richard,

I know you are the expect on this. According to the 3-22-48 Tucker Corporation memo, the frame change was supposed
to happen between cars 25 and 26, (i've posted it below). Did it happen earlier? Streamliner had posted information near
the end of May 2009 where he thought there were changes after Car 7 or so then again between 25 and 26. According to
this memo, it look like there were several small changes made but that as a whole, it would make it pretty easy to tell one
frame from another. They also talked of moving the front bumper forward.

It seems that there was a lot of concern by the company about over reinforceing the frames. Do you know if any frames
were retrofitted? Does anyone know how many cars might have been completed by 3-22-48? It appeared the change from
the 128" wheelbase to 130" was supposed to happen at car 26 but if they didn't have the first 25 completed by 3-22-48
could they have moved the change forward to car 8 or so as they knew they would not be using the 128" frame? Is it possible
they retrofitted cars 8-25 with the 130" frame?

[plancor 792]

The frames were not changed for the first 25 cars. Reread Tucker Corporation Departmental Correspondence of March 22,1948. "detailed parts to be finished (furnished) for the balance of the 50 frames after the first 25 frames".
Sect. III "This has been held to 25 cars. This will be released to be assembled in cars 26 through 50".
Sect. IV "This has been held to 25 cars. This will be released for the second lot of 25 cars".

The frame changes were made at Tucker Serial Number 1026. The wheelbase on Tucker Serial Number 1009 through 1025 was accomplished by changing the trailing arms on the rear suspension.

Richard Jones

[MD]

I should stop trying to be so clever. Looks like #1025 did have gas tank in the rear (and a 128" wheelbase, the last we see of that), but consulting my notes it should still be green on green (300/900). Therefore #1038 is a good candidate for that car and means the film was made under considerable pressure (as we presume the "first 37" to be built prior to the beginning of the end.) If so, this also means it did have an engine and transmission and was completed, fully functional at the factory (Reinert and Cole, I'm looking at you.)

But again, my original point about manufacturers plates still holds true, they don't correlate well with the serial numbers.

Right you are... I have edited my previous post.

I will echo Richard's statements on the suspension/wheelbase changes occurring at #1009, with the frame modifications made at #1026.

[Tucker Fan 48]

The frame changes were made at Tucker Serial Number 1026. The wheelbase on Tucker Serial Number 1009 through 1025 was accomplished by changing the trailing arms on the rear suspension.

Now I get it ! Richard, I knew you would have the answer. I always figured if the wheelbase was longer then the frame had to have been changed.
I had not realized that the trailing arms on the rear suspension were changed. I guess you can learn something new everyday about Tuckers.