Aircooled Motors

[tuckerfan1941]

I just ordered both Alex Tremulis's Book & Eagans book on the Tucker. I have a question I hope these books will answer. If
they will , I'll wait till they arrive & read them to get my information. If anyone knows the answers won't be there please try & help me.

I know the engines were Aircooled & had to be converted to water cooling . This , it would seem, would require a LOT of mods to do. Were the engines redesigned at The engine makers factory , or did Tucker convert them?

[Tuckerfan1053]

The modifications (at least some of them) were done in Preston Tucker's kitchen, according to The Indomitable Tin Goose, so I'd say that the redesign work was done by Tucker's folks.

[Larry Clark]

Your question strikes at the crux of the federal government's criminal case versus Preston Tucker, that he intended to defraud people. The work was primarily done at the Ypsilanti Machine & Tool Company which was located in the barn-like structure behind his mother's home in Ypsilanit, Michigan. The stove was in his mother's house. Tucker sent his most trusted worker colleagues there, along with Preston, Jr., to be able to get the modifications done in as quick a time as possible out of the politics/happenings at the Chicago plant. They were successful. However, the SEC felt this was great evidence of Tucker just trying to deploy dollars to YM&T in to his personal pockets. While it did have the effect of doing this, it also resulted in a great converted engine.

Immediately after the criminal trial was over (January 1950), Preston Tucker was dragged before the bankruptcy referee for Tucker Corporation where he testified over a number of days responding to assertions that he authorized wastes of money and/or doing things "to line his pockets" at the expense of the company (the fact that Tucker was found to not have criminal liability was no bar to a possible civil liability to the bankruptcy estate). YM&T/converting the engine was again a major focus. His mother was also called to testify- about this very matter. The bankruptcy court never imposed civil liabiltiy against Preston Tucker (a factor undoubtedly was that he was by then totally broke and beaten).

Incidentally, the car Preston drove to the federal courthouse with his mother for her hearing? Tucker car #1029.

Larry

[tuckerfan1941]

Were all of the engines converted at Ymt ? What was entailed in trhe conversion--- the Aircooled motor had finned cylinders like all aircooled motors had -- did they cast & machine completly new cylinders or build some sort of water jacket to fit over the existing parts?

[Randy Earle]

That Chicago Plant was a major cause of many problems for Tucker in my opinion. It just didn't make sense to locate so far away from his home base. I think it was all a big show on his part and it backfired in his face. He could have built 50 cars in his barn. Was that engine used in anything else after the demise of the Tucker Corporation?

[Tuckerfan1053]

Were all of the engines converted at Ymt ? What was entailed in trhe conversion--- the Aircooled motor had finned cylinders like all aircooled motors had -- did they cast & machine completly new cylinders or build some sort of water jacket to fit over the existing parts?

The cylinders given a bronze liner, and I believe, though I might be mistaken on this, that they just cast a water jacket for use over the existing parts.

The water cooled version of the engine was never used in anything else, but the air cooled version remained in production for many decades (the helicopters on the M*A*S*H TV show used that engine, for example). The company remained in business until just a few years ago, when it was sold to a Polish company who apparently just closed it down after they bought it.

[Phantomrig]

My grand father had a Stinsen 1081 airplane that had the frenklin engine it it, to the best of my knowledge it was built in 1947. the engine was aiucooled but my father said that my grandfather also at one time had a franklin aircraft engine that was water cooled, so I dont know if the this water cooled engine had anything in common with the Tucker conversion but it is interesting.

[Tuckerfan1053]

From the photos of their engine blocks that I've seen, it looks to me that all their 6 cylinder designs were made using the same castings, they just bored the cylinders out larger on the bigger displacement engines.

[streamliner]

Nothing beats the first-hand accounts from those who built the Tucker '48. Here's Carl Doman's recollections of the evolution of the Tucker 335 powerplant from the Franklin perspective, originally published in the H.H. Franklin Club's newsletter, Air Cooled News No. 58 in April 1973. Carl Doman is the engineer who built the 275 horsepower "hotted up" version of the 335 for the potential Tucker Talisman (see "Tuckers Number 02 and 14" in "Tucker History"). The commentaries are by Bill Hamlin, who also wrote a separate article republished in the same newsletter.

[Tucker Fan 48]

I've read in many places that the Franklin engine burned tons of oil because it had no oil control rings in it. Aircraft engines are powered at
all times so they don't encounter the oil sucking condition that exists when one is decelerating in a car.

Bev Ferreira solved the problem on #1041 by finding some automotive pistons that were the same size and swapping them out with the
pistons in the Franklin motor. According to Bev that was a quick fix and solved the problem.

What have other Tucker owners done to address that problem?

[tuckerfan1941]

Streamliner --- THANK YOU!! I never expected to get such a complete answer to my question. I am so glad I did however.
One thing becomes most evident however--- Tucker wanted to sell the car for around a thousand dollars at the inception of his planned production-- then I believe went up to around 2 thousand. This would have been completely impossible with a powerplant cost of 1500 $ per unit.
Considering that a new Chevrolet or Ford was around 900 to 1200 $ in 1947 , the Tucker would have to have been a long way out of the low priced three. It might have even needed to exceed the price of a Caddy or Lincoln. Not a real good development for volume sales.

Dave

[Tuckerfan1053]

Streamliner --- THANK YOU!! I never expected to get such a complete answer to my question. I am so glad I did however.
One thing becomes most evident however--- Tucker wanted to sell the car for around a thousand dollars at the inception of his planned production-- then I believe went up to around 2 thousand. This would have been completely impossible with a powerplant cost of 1500 $ per unit.
Considering that a new Chevrolet or Ford was around 900 to 1200 $ in 1947 , the Tucker would have to have been a long way out of the low priced three. It might have even needed to exceed the price of a Caddy or Lincoln. Not a real good development for volume sales.

Dave

I don't think that Tucker really had made up his mind what segment of the market he was aiming for. One of the early advertisements for the company said "Luxury beyond comparison in the medium priced field." That seems more like Mercury, Pontiac, or Oldsmobile territory than it does Chevy or Ford.

[tuckerfan1941]

Streamliner --- THANK YOU!! I never expected to get such a complete answer to my question. I am so glad I did however.
One thing becomes most evident however--- Tucker wanted to sell the car for around a thousand dollars at the inception of his planned production-- then I believe went up to around 2 thousand. This would have been completely impossible with a powerplant cost of 1500 $ per unit.
Considering that a new Chevrolet or Ford was around 900 to 1200 $ in 1947 , the Tucker would have to have been a long way out of the low priced three. It might have even needed to exceed the price of a Caddy or Lincoln. Not a real good development for volume sales.

Dave

I don't think that Tucker really had made up his mind what segment of the market he was aiming for. One of the early advertisements for the company said "Luxury beyond comparison in the medium priced field." That seems more like Mercury, Pontiac, or Oldsmobile territory than it does Chevy or Ford.

I just did some research & found the top line Olds was 2 ,000 ( believe it or not an even 2 grand) in 1947--- a Cad got up to apx. 4,000 .
Now ,with a 1500. dollar engine cost , how high do you suppose the car would have to have been? I'd speculate that it would have to be over 3,000 , getting close to the cost of a Cad or Lincoln.

Were there any Tuckers actually sold to people before the gov't siezure & auction?

[Tuckerfan1053]

But what would have been the cost of the engines if they'd gone into large scale production? The high price might simply have been a consequence of the low production of the engines, and once they started turning out hundreds of them, the price per engine could have dropped. Without an engineering study on the matter, its difficult to say. Given the origins of Air Cooled Motors (Franklin automobiles), putting them into cars wasn't out of the question.

[tuckerfan1941]

[quote="Tuckerfan1053"]But what would have been the cost of the engines if they'd gone into large scale production? The high price might simply have been a consequence of the low production of the engines, and once they started turning out hundreds of them, the price per engine could have dropped. Without an engineering study on the matter, its difficult to say. Given the origins of Air Cooled Motors (Franklin automobiles), putting them into cars wasn't out of the question.[/quot

I agree that eventually the engine cost could come down -- according to the article the first 25 cost 5,000 EACH which the Tucker folks were most unhappy about. Some of these 25 undoubtly went in the Tuckers first built , the NEXT 150 were to cast 1500 each. Of course that included the patternmaking cost & such-- so eventually they would have come down because of amortization over many motors of these costs. But it sure left Tucker with some horrendous costs asscoiated with the 50 that got built.